How to Get Past Surface-Level Conversations with Women

Written by dating coach for men Gary Gunn - Founder of Social Attraction

3 September 2025

Isn’t it frustrating when you’re talking to a woman and it feels like she’s just going through the motions with you? This is otherwise known as social niceties. In fact, there’s a term for this called phatic communication.

Phatic communication means surface-level conversation. It sounds like: What did you get up to? How are you? What have you been doing? It’s the type of interaction we can do on autopilot.

The reason this is so important is because if a woman is being phatic with you, it usually means there’s no romantic interest. If she’s only giving you surface-level responses, she’s showing you that she doesn’t want to commit more of her resources, her attention, or her energy toward you.

I have a great example of this from my own life just yesterday.

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A Real-Life Example of Phatic Communication

I was finishing my fifth day of an acting class at RADA, the Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts in London. Before the course started, I was sitting outside a café and one of the women on the course joined me. We had an interesting chat, but it stayed very surface-level.

What I found even more telling was that when another female member of the group turned up, the first woman instantly switched her attention mid-conversation to the other girl. That’s phatic communication in action.

So what’s really happening here? It’s easy to take this personally, but phatic communication is more complicated than it looks.

Often, we go through social niceties because silence makes us uncomfortable. We channel that energy into autopilot questions like: How are you? Good to see you. What you been up to? But the truth is, nearly everyone uses phatic communication at some point. We’re tired, distracted, or simply don’t want to commit energy.

But living on autopilot is ineffective for two big reasons. First, you’re not present yourself. Second, and more importantly, you miss the chance to call it out and take the interaction deeper.

Why Calling Out Phatic Communication Matters

In dating, calling out phatic communication can be transformational. If you can take someone off autopilot, you stand out instantly.

When I first went into this acting course, I made the mistake of approaching it with the mindset of a beginner. I’d never acted before, so I felt out of my comfort zone. I was surrounded by serious actors, some of whom were already on Netflix shows. Because of that, my frame felt weak and I wasn’t acting like my usual confident self.

This reminded me of a powerful lesson Arnold Schwarzenegger wrote about in his autobiography. In his first bodybuilding competition, he didn’t expect to win and came second. He realized that you should always compete with the mindset that you will win. You must attend as if you belong there.

I should have approached my week at RADA with the frame that I was meant to be there, not as an outsider.

And this lesson carries over directly into dating. How often do we question whether we belong in a certain situation? We see an attractive woman and wonder if we’re good enough to approach her. We go to the gym and wonder if we deserve to take up space compared to the bigger guys.

The truth is, you always have the right to be there.

You Have the Right to Take Up Space

This point was hammered home for me when I was younger playing snooker, a game similar to pool but on a bigger table. A mentor once told me, “Even if you’re playing the best player in the world, when it’s your turn, that’s your table. You have as much right to be there as he does.”

That lesson applies everywhere. Whether it’s sports, acting classes, or dating, you are supposed to be there. If you don’t commit to that belief, your frame weakens and people sense it.

That’s why confidence in dating isn’t only about what you say, but the frame you bring to every interaction. If you act like you belong, women will feel it. If you act like you’re apologizing for existing, they’ll feel that too.

Moving from Phatic Communication to Attraction

So how do you move a conversation from phatic communication into something meaningful, especially if you want to build attraction?

One of the key principles I teach is that in any conversation you are either leading or following. Too often men give away their power by following her lead.

To explain this, I use a simple exercise I call the 10 gold coins strategy. Imagine you have 10 gold coins at the start of a conversation. Every time you let her lead you or you answer one of her autopilot questions, you lose a coin.

For example:

She says, “That’s a nice jacket. Where did you get it?”
You answer, “I got it from Hugo Boss.”

You’ve lost a coin.

She asks, “Where are you from?”
You answer. Another coin gone.

The problem is not the questions themselves but the fact that you’re allowing her to lead. Over time, this makes you less attractive.

Now, some people might accuse this strategy of being manipulative. But the truth is, society has already manipulated most of us into being weak. From a young age we’re trained to answer every question, to always be polite, and to never challenge authority. That programming carries over into dating.

Real strength comes when you realize that you don’t have to answer every question. You have the freedom to choose how you respond.

And that’s exactly what makes you stand out in a world full of men who are stuck in phatic communication.

Why Frame Is Everything in Dating Conversations

When I walked into that acting course with the mindset of being a beginner, I set my frame too low. I told myself I was new to acting, surrounded by professionals, and that created an energy where I wasn’t showing up as my strongest self.

This happens in dating all the time. You see an attractive woman and suddenly your frame collapses. You second-guess yourself. You wonder if you’re good enough to talk to her. You think about what other guys around might be offering instead of focusing on your own value.

The truth is, attraction has less to do with what you say and far more to do with the frame you bring into the conversation. If you walk in like you belong there, women feel it. If you walk in like you’re apologizing for taking up space, women feel that too.

Phatic communication in dating is often just a reflection of your frame. If you’re stuck in surface-level talk, it’s usually because your frame is weak, and you’re not leading the interaction.

The Lesson of Taking Up Space

That snooker story I shared earlier keeps coming back to me. When it’s your turn, the table is yours. It doesn’t matter if you’re playing the best in the world — for that moment, you have just as much right to be there as he does.

This same principle applies to dating conversations. Too many men step into an interaction as if they’re unworthy, like they need permission to speak. But the reality is, you don’t need anyone’s permission to take up space in a conversation.

When you truly believe that, your presence changes. Your tone changes. Your body language changes. Suddenly, you’re no longer stuck in phatic communication. Instead, you lead with intention.

Breaking Free from Phatic Communication

So how do you move past phatic communication in dating and into something real?

One of the most powerful tools I teach is the 10 gold coin strategy. Imagine starting every interaction with 10 gold coins. Each time you simply answer a woman’s autopilot question, you lose one.

Where are you from? Coin gone.
What do you do? Another coin gone.
Nice jacket, where’s it from? Coin gone.

Pretty soon, you’ve given away all your coins, and she’s leading the interaction. You’ve slipped into the follower role without even realizing it.

The solution is simple: stop giving away your coins so easily. Instead of answering directly, you redirect, you challenge, or you lead the conversation toward something meaningful.

This isn’t manipulation. It’s freedom. Society has trained most men to answer questions automatically, to never disrupt, to always be agreeable. Breaking free from that programming is what allows you to stop getting stuck in phatic communication and start building genuine attraction.

Why Authentic Communication Beats Comfort

Here’s a hard truth: no one has the right to feel comfortable in conversation with you. They have the right to feel safe, but not the right to feel comfortable.

That was a lesson my acting coach hammered home. Comfort is a byproduct of social niceties. Safety is non-negotiable. But comfort? That’s optional.

When you drop the need to keep everyone comfortable, you free yourself to speak the truth. You can call out phatic communication. You can point out when someone isn’t fully present. You can challenge them to go deeper.

And that’s exactly what creates attraction. Women are drawn to men who disrupt autopilot and make them feel something real.

When Phatic Communication Serves a Purpose

Now here’s the interesting twist. Sometimes phatic communication in dating actually serves you.

Yesterday at the acting course, when I realized one of the women was shallow and entitled, I let the conversation stay on autopilot. Why? Because I had no real desire to connect with her on a deeper level. In that moment, phatic communication protected my energy.

That’s worth keeping in mind. Not every woman you meet deserves access to your authentic self. If you sense she’s spoiled, manipulative, or self-absorbed, there’s no reason to waste effort. Keep it surface-level, keep it polite, and move on.

But when you do want to spark attraction, you have to make a choice: stay stuck in autopilot, or break the pattern and take the conversation somewhere real.

How to Transition from Surface-Level to Attraction

There are two powerful ways to move from phatic communication into genuine attraction:

Challenge her – Call out what she says, question her assumptions, or playfully push back. This disrupts autopilot and forces her to engage with you on a deeper level.
Tease her – Use humor to highlight something she says or does, creating a playful energy.

Both work because they break the rhythm of surface talk. They create tension, spark curiosity, and shift the dynamic from flat to engaging.

For example, if a woman tells you she’s a full-time student living off her parents, you might challenge her by asking who’s funding her rent, her food, her tuition. Layer those questions, and eventually she realizes the privilege of her situation.

Will it make her uncomfortable? Probably. But remember, comfort isn’t the goal. Authenticity is.

Why Not Every Woman Is Worth Pursuing

Let’s pause here, because this is a critical point. Just because a woman is attractive doesn’t mean she’s worth your time.

If she’s stuck in phatic communication, self-centered, and uninterested in connecting, ask yourself: do you really want to date her? Or are you just reacting to looks?

One of the biggest mistakes men make in dating is assuming that beauty equals value. The truth is, there are plenty of attractive women who are entitled, manipulative, or simply boring. If you get caught chasing them, you’ll waste time and energy that could be spent on someone who actually inspires you.

That’s why sometimes the best move isn’t to break free of phatic communication. The best move is to walk away.

Single Point of Focus in Conversations

Another important concept is having a single point of focus.

When I started the acting course, I told myself part of my intent was to meet people and maybe make new friends. But my real goal should have been to learn acting skills. That was my single point of focus.

The same applies in dating. If your focus is to build attraction with a woman, don’t get sidetracked with meaningless small talk. Don’t drift into surface-level chatter that leads nowhere.

When you have one clear focus, your energy aligns. The conversation naturally flows toward that outcome. If your goal is attraction, you’ll look for ways to lead, to challenge, and to spark connection.

Why Women Test You Immediately

Here’s something else that stood out from the acting course. One of the very first questions I got asked by a woman was, “How old are you?”

That’s a challenge, plain and simple. It’s not phatic communication. It’s a test.

And women do this all the time in dating. They’ll throw a question or a comment that puts you slightly on the back foot. Not because they care about the answer, but because they want to feel your frame.

If you crumble, you fail the test. If you stand firm, you earn respect.

Phatic communication keeps things safe and easy. Challenges test your frame. Knowing the difference between the two is critical if you want to build attraction.

Why Following Kills Attraction

In every conversation, you’re either leading or following. That’s the reality. And if you’re following, you’re losing ground.

Think about it. If every time she asks you something, you answer straight away, you’ve given her the power. You’ve signaled that she’s in charge of where this interaction is going.

That’s why my 10 gold coins strategy is so effective. It shows men just how quickly they slip into the follower role without realizing it. By the time you’ve answered three or four surface-level questions, you’ve already lost momentum.

The fix is to resist the pull of autopilot. Instead of handing over your gold coins, redirect. Make her qualify herself. Ask her something real. Or even better, challenge her frame.

When you do this, the energy shifts. You’re no longer stuck in phatic communication. You’re creating tension, sparking curiosity, and leading the interaction.

Phatic Communication and Social Conditioning

One of the reasons so many men get trapped in phatic communication in dating is because of childhood conditioning.

From the time we’re kids, we’re told to respect authority, answer every question, and always be polite. That programming runs deep. By the time we’re adults, we default to giving polite, surface-level answers instead of protecting our own frame.

The problem is that politeness doesn’t build attraction. It builds comfort. And as I said earlier, comfort isn’t the goal. Authenticity is.

Breaking free from phatic communication is really about breaking free from that social conditioning. It’s about realizing you don’t owe anyone automatic answers. You don’t owe anyone surface talk. What you owe yourself is honesty and presence.

When to Walk Away

Let’s talk about an important skill: knowing when to walk away.

At the end of the acting course, a group of us had planned to go for drinks with students from another class. But one of the women — the same one who had been stuck in surface-level, self-centered talk all week — lied about not having their details, even though I had seen her exchange information the day before.

In that moment, I realized exactly what was happening. It wasn’t about drinks. It was about control. It was about her wanting to lead the group on her terms.

And that’s when I asked myself: do I actually want to spend my time with people like this? The answer was no.

So I politely made my excuses and left.

This is a lesson men need in dating. Not every woman is worth your energy. If she’s manipulative, self-serving, or stuck in endless phatic communication, don’t waste time trying to win her over. Walk away.

Because here’s the truth: attraction isn’t just about whether she likes you. It’s also about whether she’s the kind of person you want in your life.

Stop Assuming Women Are Different

Another trap men fall into is assuming too much about women just because they’re attractive.

Don’t assume she’s kind. Don’t assume she’s truthful. Don’t assume she’s relationship material.

Phatic communication in dating often hides deeper issues — insecurity, entitlement, self-centeredness. If you’re paying attention, you’ll sense when something is off.

Your job isn’t to fix it. Your job is to decide whether you want to stay in that interaction or walk away.

And nine times out of ten, the best move is to run the other way. No matter how attractive she looks, if the energy is wrong, let it go.

How to Call Out Phatic Communication

One of the simplest ways to break free from phatic communication in dating is to call it out directly.

If you’re talking to a woman and the conversation feels flat, you can say something like:

“You know what? You’re giving me phatic communication right now.”

Most women will look at you confused and ask, “What’s that?”

And instead of giving them a boring textbook definition, flip it back to them. Say:

“What do you think it is? Do you feel like this is a deep conversation or a surface-level one?”

When she admits it feels surface-level, you’ve already broken autopilot. You’ve shifted the dynamic from small talk to awareness. And that’s where attraction starts.

The key is not being afraid to disrupt the flow. You don’t owe anyone comfort. You owe yourself truth.

Why Comfort Is the Enemy of Attraction

My acting coach repeated something throughout the course that stuck with me: you don’t have the right to feel comfortable.

And neither does she.

Safety is essential — people need to know they’re safe around you. But comfort? That’s optional. In fact, in dating, comfort often kills attraction.

If all you’re doing is making her comfortable, you’re stuck in the friend zone. Attraction grows from tension, challenge, and unpredictability — the exact opposite of comfort.

Phatic communication provides comfort. Authentic communication provides attraction. That’s why you must be willing to disrupt, challenge, and lead.

Why Being “Nice” Doesn’t Work

Many men resist this because they want to be “nice.” They don’t want to risk upsetting someone, so they stick to safe, polite, phatic communication.

But niceness is not attractive. Strength is. Authenticity is. Leadership is.

If you’re too focused on making sure she feels comfortable, you’ll never create the spark of attraction. You’ll be the safe, agreeable guy she enjoys talking to for five minutes and then forgets.

That’s why breaking free from phatic communication is essential. It separates you from the masses of men who are just “nice.”

Phatic Communication and the Leader-Follower Dynamic

During the course, I noticed something fascinating about group dynamics.

One of the women tried to take control of the group by saying, “Let’s all go for drinks.” She wasn’t making an invitation — she was making a command.

It was a subtle attempt at leadership, but it carried the energy of someone trying to boost her own status by rallying others. And honestly, I couldn’t think of anything worse than following that.

A better approach would have been: “I’m going for a drink, do you want to come?” That’s leadership without control. That’s invitation without manipulation.

This is the same in dating. Women are constantly assessing whether you’re leading or following. If you default into phatic communication, you’re following. If you’re leading, you create the dynamic where attraction can grow.

Age, Status, and Frame

Something else I noticed during the acting course was the wide age range of participants. I’m 40, and some of the younger students had gone straight from school to university to courses like this.

That meant they were used to classroom dynamics, groupthink, and pecking orders. They knew how to play those games. I wasn’t used to it anymore, which meant I had to process it differently.

This taught me another valuable lesson for dating. Women will test your frame based on whatever dynamics they’re used to. Younger women might throw social tests. Older women might throw lifestyle tests. High-status women might test your confidence.

If you’re not grounded in your own frame, you’ll get caught. And when you get caught, you’ll fall back into phatic communication just to survive the moment.

Treat Every Interaction as Practice

Here’s a mindset shift that can transform your dating life: treat every conversation as practice.

At the acting course, when I realized I didn’t want to connect deeply with one of the women, I still used the moment to practice storytelling techniques I’d been learning. Instead of seeing it as wasted energy, I turned it into a training session.

You can do the same in dating. Even if you’re not interested in the woman, use the interaction to practice breaking phatic communication. Use it to test challenges, teases, or stories. Use it to strengthen your frame.

That way, no conversation is wasted. Every interaction becomes a rep in the gym of social skills.

The Hidden Cost of Phatic Communication

Phatic communication in dating isn’t just boring. It costs you more than you realize.

When you stay stuck in surface-level talk, you signal low intent. You show her you’re just another guy making noise in her day. And in return, she invests nothing back.

Over time, this creates a pattern where women don’t respect your energy. They don’t prioritize your presence. And eventually, they stop seeing you as a man worth their attention.

Breaking free from phatic communication is about reclaiming that energy. It’s about signaling that your time is valuable, your attention is valuable, and you’re not going to waste it on autopilot exchanges.

When you live this way, everything shifts. Women respect you more. Conversations become more engaging. And attraction builds naturally.

Walking Away From Manipulative Women

At the end of the course, one woman claimed she didn’t have the contact details of the other class. I knew she was lying — I’d seen her exchange numbers the day before.

That was a pivotal moment.

Because the easy path would have been to ignore it, to accept her surface-level excuse, and to keep following along. But that would have meant playing her game — a game built on control and manipulation.

Instead, I chose the harder path. I called it out in my head, recognized what was happening, and walked away.

That’s one of the most powerful moves a man can make in dating: the ability to walk away.

Women will test your frame. Some will even try to manipulate your energy. But you are never obligated to play along.

If she’s stuck in phatic communication, refusing depth, or playing games, you don’t have to fight for her attention. You don’t have to keep investing. You can simply say “no thanks” and move on.

Walking away is the ultimate frame control. It shows you value yourself more than the interaction. And paradoxically, that’s often when women feel the strongest attraction.

Why You Can’t Save Her

Another lesson: don’t fall into the trap of thinking you can “save” a woman from her own shallowness.

During the course, part of me wanted to challenge that entitled student, to show her that life isn’t just about getting whatever she wants. But then I realized — that’s not my job.

Phatic communication often hides deeper issues like insecurity or entitlement. But it’s not your responsibility to fix them.

If she’s not willing to grow, you can’t drag her into authenticity. And if you try, you’ll just burn yourself out.

Instead, focus on the women who are already willing to break free from autopilot and engage with you at a deeper level. They’re the ones who are worth your energy.

The Illusion of Social Value

Here’s another trap men fall into: confusing social value with actual value.

That same student who lied about the contact details? She had social status within the group. She was loud, commanding, and people followed her. But none of that meant she was high-value as a person.

In dating, you’ll see this all the time. A woman may have beauty, attention, and social clout. But that doesn’t make her genuine. It doesn’t make her authentic.

If all she offers is phatic communication and games, then all she’s offering is surface-level value. And if you buy into that illusion, you’ll end up chasing shadows.

Real value shows up in honesty, depth, and authenticity. If she’s not bringing that, she’s not worth your time — no matter how many men are lining up for her.

Choosing Depth Over Noise

At its core, breaking free from phatic communication in dating is about choosing depth over noise.

Noise is easy. It’s autopilot. It’s “how was your day?” and “what do you do for work?” and “nice weather today.”

Depth is harder. Depth means being willing to disrupt, challenge, and reveal who you really are. Depth means risking discomfort for the chance at connection.

But depth is where attraction lives.

Every time you choose depth over noise, you separate yourself from 99% of men. You create a space where real connection can grow. And you set the stage for authentic attraction — not just surface-level interest.

Phatic Communication as a Filter

One of the best ways to look at phatic communication is as a filter.

Most people live in autopilot. They stay at the surface because it’s safe. That means if you’re willing to go deeper, you’ll automatically filter out the majority who can’t or won’t follow you.

And that’s a good thing.

Because in dating, you don’t want everyone. You don’t want shallow connections. You want the few who are willing to go there with you.

So when a woman resists, when she stays stuck in phatic communication, don’t see it as rejection. See it as filtering. She’s showing you she’s not a fit.

And that leaves more space for the women who are.

The Life Lesson Beneath It All

What I realized from the acting course is this: phatic communication isn’t just a dating issue. It’s a life issue.

Most of the time, people operate at the surface. They avoid depth because depth is uncomfortable. They avoid honesty because honesty is risky. They avoid authenticity because authenticity requires courage.

But if you want more from life — more connection, more attraction, more meaning — you can’t live on autopilot. You can’t settle for phatic communication.

You have to be willing to disrupt. To challenge. To lead. To walk away.

That’s what separates men who drift from men who create. It’s what separates meaningless encounters from magnetic attraction.

And ultimately, it’s what separates surface living from a life that actually matters.

Breaking the Cycle of Phatic Communication

Phatic communication in dating is everywhere.

It’s the default. It’s what most people fall into when they don’t know what else to do. And if you don’t consciously break the cycle, you’ll end up stuck in it too — going through the motions, answering surface-level questions, and wondering why attraction never builds.

The truth is, attraction doesn’t live in autopilot. It lives in disruption. It lives in risk. It lives in the moments when you’re willing to step off the beaten path and say something real.

That’s why every time you feel yourself sliding into phatic communication, you need to catch it. Stop. Redirect. Challenge. Ask a real question. Share a real story. Or simply walk away.

Every time you do, you reclaim your energy. You reclaim your frame. And you send a clear message: you’re not just another guy running the same tired script. You’re a man who leads, who disrupts, and who creates connection.

The Rule of Three: Spotting Surface Talk

Here’s a simple rule you can use to catch phatic communication before it derails your interaction: the Rule of Three.

If you’ve given three surface-level answers in a row — you’ve handed over too many gold coins.

That’s your signal to switch. To stop following and start leading. To move from surface to depth.

For example:

Her: “Where are you from?”
You: “London.” (One coin.)
Her: “What do you do?”
You: “I run a business.” (Two coins.)
Her: “Do you like it?”
You: “Yeah.” (Three coins.)

At this point, if you just keep answering, you’re done. You’re following. You’re locked into phatic communication.

But if you switch and say, “Hold up, you’re asking me all the standard phatic questions. Is this your interview style, or do you have something more interesting?” — now you’ve disrupted. You’ve broken autopilot. And you’ve flipped the dynamic back to leadership.

Discomfort Is the Path

The biggest reason men stay stuck in phatic communication is fear of discomfort.

We don’t want to risk silence. We don’t want to risk being judged. We don’t want to risk making her uncomfortable.

But discomfort is the path. It’s the doorway to attraction.

Think back to the acting course. The exercises that pushed us — that made us sweat, that forced us to be vulnerable — those were the ones that built connection. Not the safe ones. Not the easy ones.

Dating works the same way. If you avoid discomfort, you avoid growth. You avoid tension. And without tension, there is no attraction.

Attraction Is About Energy, Not Words

One of the biggest revelations for me was realizing that breaking free from phatic communication isn’t really about the words. It’s about the energy.

You can say the same line with different energy, and it lands completely differently. You can ask the same question, but if you’re grounded, playful, and authentic, it creates attraction. If you’re needy, polite, and surface-level, it kills attraction.

This is why some men can literally tease a woman about something mundane and she’s drawn in — while others can recite the smoothest “pickup lines” and get nowhere.

It’s not the script. It’s the frame. It’s the willingness to break autopilot and bring authentic energy.

Living Beyond Phatic Communication

Here’s the real kicker: this isn’t just about dating.

If you live your whole life in phatic communication, you’ll miss out on everything that matters. You’ll spend your days talking about the weather, the news, the traffic, but never actually connecting. You’ll skim the surface of friendships, relationships, and opportunities.

But if you decide to live beyond phatic communication — if you make it your mission to disrupt autopilot, challenge surface talk, and lead with authenticity — your whole life changes.

You’ll have deeper friendships. More meaningful relationships. More magnetic energy. And you’ll stand out in a world full of people stuck in noise.

The Takeaway

If there’s one thing I want you to take from all this, it’s simple:

Phatic communication in dating is the enemy of attraction.

It keeps you safe, polite, and forgettable. But if you’re willing to disrupt it — if you’re willing to call it out, flip the script, and lead with depth — you’ll create the kind of authentic connections most men never experience.

So next time you’re on a date, or in a conversation with a woman you’re attracted to, pay attention. Notice when you’re slipping into autopilot. Notice when she’s stuck at the surface. And then have the courage to break free.

Because attraction doesn’t live in the comfort zone. It lives in authenticity. And authenticity begins the moment you stop settling for phatic communication.